Me too. Want no part of Cousins and those picks are worth more than Butler or George.I agree with this. I am quite happy they stayed pat.
Me too. Want no part of Cousins and those picks are worth more than Butler or George.I agree with this. I am quite happy they stayed pat.
There's a "pretty good chance" Jaylen Brown is a top 15 player in 2 years?I'm pleased that Jaylen Brown wasn't thrown in for George or Butler, because there's a pretty good chance that in two years he's better than either of them. This isn't the year to go all-in, although it's a pity that Ainge couldn't turn Bradley into something useful. Smart, Brown and Rozier have all improved notably with Bradley's playing time.
Okay, I've heard this said so much ... what are they worth?Me too. Want no part of Cousins and those picks are worth more than Butler or George.
Wow. Wow.I'm pleased that Jaylen Brown wasn't thrown in for George or Butler, because there's a pretty good chance that in two years he's better than either of them. This isn't the year to go all-in, although it's a pity that Ainge couldn't turn Bradley into something useful. Smart, Brown and Rozier have all improved notably with Bradley's playing time.
There is a pretty good chance that George and Butler will no longer be top 15 players in two years. I think both have peaked and are on the way down the slippery slope to expensive mediocrity at a position where the league has an abundance of talent.There's a "pretty good chance" Jaylen Brown is a top 15 player in 2 years?
Actually we can definitively say those picks aren't worth more than Butler or George or they would be Celtics right now.Me too. Want no part of Cousins and those picks are worth more than Butler or George.
It depends what you're measuring, right? It's possible that Jimmy Butler is likely to be more valuable over the next X years than the two draft picks BUT the odds of winning a title with the two draft picks is greater than the odds of winning with Jimmy Butler (because adding Butler doesn't get you there but hitting the draft pick lottery does).Okay, I've heard this said so much ... what are they worth?
Easy. Top 3 level talent back.Okay, I've heard this said so much ... what are they worth?
How can this possibly be true?Me too. Want no part of Cousins and those picks are worth more than Butler or George.
Wait: did they offer both picks for each of them? Sorry if I missed that.Actually we can definitively say those picks aren't worth more than Butler or George or they would be Celtics right now.
"Reports" that are coming from somebody that writes for a random sports blog. Not exactly coming from Woj or anybody remotely tied in to the league. My post was just to point out that there are risks involved in both approaches to building a championship team. There are advantages to cashing in some of the chips for an established star player. PG can say all he wants about how he'd love to go to LA but when the contract offer from Boston is higher than LA's we'll find out exactly how much home means to him.Reports were that it would have taken 3 good players plus the 2017 pick for Paul George and that he wants to go to LA in a year and a half. You would have done that trade?
Ok, this makes way more sense. I just misread your post.There is a pretty good chance that George and Butler will no longer be top 15 players in two years. I think both have peaked and are on the way down the slippery slope to expensive mediocrity at a position where the league has an abundance of talent.
There's a pretty good chance that Jaylen Brown is a top 50 player in 2019.
Sorry if that wasn't clear. One of the Nets pick, be it '17 or '18, was never getting George or Butler. The hold up was how much other stuff needed to be included to get something done. Ergo, those picks don't have more value than established NBA superstars.Wait: did they offer both picks for each of them? Sorry if I missed that.
But no one is saying they could have made a reasonable trade for an established star. It sounds like you wanted them to make a trade that wasn't available. Which star do you think they should have traded for and what do you think they could have gotten that player for?"Reports" that are coming from somebody that writes for a random sports blog. Not exactly coming from Woj or anybody remotely tied in to the league. My post was just to point out that there are risks involved in both approaches to building a championship team. There are advantages to cashing in some of the chips for an established star player. PG can say all he wants about how he'd love to go to LA but when the contract offer from Boston is higher than LA's we'll find out exactly how much home means to him.
Fultz has a very good chance to be better than both. No guarantees of course but he's way ahead of where Butler and George were at the same age. So are the other guys they are looking at in the top 3. They are more talented.How can this possibly be true?
True, but there is another side to this that I feel like is often missing - those years of control are, in the beginning, years where the young player is not good enough to get you anywhere near a championship.The advantage of draft picks as opposed to a veteran player is the years of control.
But you just turned their draft pick into Fultz when the odds are they will not be in a position to draft him.Fultz has a very good chance to be better than both. No guarantees of course but he's way ahead of where Butler and George were at the same age. So are the other guys they are looking at in the top 3. They are more talented.
And as Doerr noted, at best this year, they are a finals loser. Fans of many franchises would part with their first born to be a finals losers. Happily, the Celtics are not like many franchises.The advantage of draft picks as opposed to a veteran player is the years of control. If we traded the Brooklyn picks for Paul George, we only get George for the remainder of his contract. At that point he is free to jump ship to the Lakers. If we keep the Brooklyn picks we have those guys under team control for 8 years.
There are two ways of trying to a championship. You can cash in your chips for a short run at a title. Or you can build a really good team for 15+ years like the Spurs have done and pick up a ring every few years.
Right now the Celtics are built to follow the Spurs model. We have a great coaching staff, a team full of players who have bought into a system, a lot of quality young players, and incoming draft picks to give us fresh blood to maintain the team for a decade. If a player like Kevin Durant wants to sign with the Celtics they need to go after him. But until a favorable situation presents itself the team should stay the course.
If he were in this years draft, there is at least one site that projected him in the lottery. Zizic isn't going anywhere. What is very encouraging about him his his drastic improvement in FT%, with the hopes he can add a 3 point shot to his game soon.I'm guessing they're also really high on Ante Zizic.
So, you're saying that some combination of draft pick possibilities and spare parts is only worth LeBron, Curry or Durant?Easy. Top 3 level talent back.
I just watched some of his latest highlights and he looks like he bulked up big time. He looks huge. The prospect of a strong and athletic 7 footer coming over next season is definitely exciting.If he were in this years draft, there is at least one site that projected him in the lottery. Zizic isn't going anywhere. What is very encouraging about him his his drastic improvement in FT%, with the hopes he can add a 3 point shot to his game soon.
Not trying to argue with you alone but while you correctly point out that there's a prospect humping side to those of us who are okay with DA standing pat (though nothing like baseball prospects), there's also a rational side.We seem to always be looking at the best case scenario for the picks (landing #1 overall) and the best case scenario for the player we pick while ignoring how good established NBA superstars are.
Edit - Disagree on the other guys in the Top 3. Again, all of our projections of college players and high school seniors are off the charts while we claim Jimmy Butler and Paul George to be on the decline.
I agree with this, Brown's 20 year old performance is favorably comparable to Butler and George's second year performance. That's not to say that he ever reaches their current levels of production, but in the final year of his rookie deal there's a very real chance that he's outperforming both of those guys. And that's a good player to have locked up for the ten years of team control the current CBA gives you.There is a pretty good chance that George and Butler will no longer be top 15 players in two years. I think both have peaked and are on the way down the slippery slope to expensive mediocrity at a position where the league has an abundance of talent.
There's a pretty good chance that Jaylen Brown is a top 50 player in 2019.
Exactly. And to the poster who suggesting that waiting for a top three pick is the only way to build a championship (a'la the "Spurs" model). It has only worked once so far in the past 16 years.Even with the worst record in the league you only have a 25% chance at the first pick and statistically you're more likely to end up picking fourth. In fact, the probability of drafting an All-NBA level talent when ending the season with the worst record is ~10%. Yes once in a generation a team gets Lebron James. If that's your baseline expectation more than likely you're going to be disappointed. That doesn't mean you have to trade the pick, but be realistic of what the most likely scenario is.
He might be second-best----it's insane to suggest anyone is in the same league as the guy with the hooded sweatshirt. Though I suppose one could note he's in a different town...Ainge may be the best GM in town.
This isn't close to being accurate. Butler and George were both very good players by year 2. Jaylen is a promising rookie, but is still nowhere near that level. You can pick whatever metric you want - it's not close.I agree with this, Brown's 20 year old performance is favorably comparable to Butler and George's second year performance. That's not to say that he ever reaches their current levels of production, but in the final year of his rookie deal there's a very real chance that he's outperforming both of those guys. And that's a good player to have locked up for the ten years of team control the current CBA gives you.
Do you guys see my point here? The mythical Spurs path is just that - a myth. And the reason is because there is an NBA Draft every year but there is not a Tim Duncan or Lebron James every year and some years there's a Steph Curry and you don't even get it right.Exactly. And to the poster who suggesting that waiting for a top three pick is the only way to build a championship (a'la the "Spurs" model). It has only worked once so far in the past 16 years.
Since the 1999 draft, the following teams have gotten top three picks:
Lakers (twice, after their run)
Miami (once, they drafted Michael Beasley, didn't affect anything)
Nets (twice, nothing)
OK St. (twice, both superstars no championship & neither player currently with them)
Orlando (twice, nothing)
Pelicans (once, nothing)
76ers (4 times, nothing)
Portland (1 time, nothing)
Raptors (once, nothing)
Rockets (once, nothing)
Utah (twice, nothing)
Warriors (once, but no not believe Mike Dunleavy played a role in their Championship)
Wizards (4 times, nothing)
Wolves (3 times, nothing)
Boston (once, but Jaylen Brown did not play a role in the Championship)
Bucks (2, nothing)
Bulls (5 times, nothing)
Cavs (4 times, CHAMPIONSHIP!!!)
Clippers (3 times, nothing)
Denver (1 time, nothing)
Detroit (1 time, Darko played no role in their Championship)
Grizzlies (3 times, nothing)
Hawks (3 times, nothing)
Hornets (4 times, nothing)
I'd like to see the overlap between the people who want to keep and make all these picks and the people who think Ainge is a mediocre drafter.Do you guys see my point here? The mythical Spurs path is just that - a myth. And the reason is because there is an NBA Draft every year but there is not a Tim Duncan or Lebron James every year and some years there's a Steph Curry and you don't even get it right.
What path are you advocating? There's no clear strategic path that leads to NBA championships. The path is to luck into an all time great. How many championships have been won over the last 30 years without a player that is top 25 all time? And in those cases most of them at least had a top 5 player in the NBA for that season. Paul George is not a top 5 player in today's NBA.Do you guys see my point here? The mythical Spurs path is just that - a myth. And the reason is because there is an NBA Draft every year but there is not a Tim Duncan or Lebron James every year and some years there's a Steph Curry and you don't even get it right.
I'm advocating not overvaluing the picks. If you can turn the picks into Top 15 talents, you do it.What path are you advocating? There's no clear strategic path that leads to NBA championships. The path is to luck into an all time great. How many championships have been won over the last 30 years without a player that is top 25 all time? And in those cases most of them at least had a top 5 player in the NBA for that season. Paul George is not a top 5 player in today's NBA.
Top 15 talents, that are outside the top 5, don't win championships as the best player on the team. And it's not clear we could have gotten one without giving up picks and a combination of guys in our current starting lineup.I'm advocating not overvaluing the picks. If you can turn the picks into Top 15 talents, you do it.
Is it possible the poster meant at age 20 and not Year 2?This isn't close to being accurate. Butler and George were both very good players by year 2. Jaylen is a promising rookie, but is still nowhere near that level. You can pick whatever metric you want - it's not close.
PG and JB aren't superstars. Westbrook, Curry, LeBron, those are Superstars. Giannis, Kawhi, Towns will be soon. I'm preferring Danny's talent, cost control and long term planning approach here. There is no urgency of now and no need to part with top-3 lottery tickets for non-Superstars.We seem to always be looking at the best case scenario for the picks (landing #1 overall) and the best case scenario for the player we pick while ignoring how good established NBA superstars are.
I'd like to see the overlap between the people who want to keep and make all these picks and the people who think Ainge is a mediocre drafter.
I'm talking more about trading Rozier/Yabu and picks for role players kinds of trades. Like, why bother with those right now? People want a rebounder, but a cheap one dimensional rebounder may not even fit into the rotations that Stevens wants to play. People talk about Tucker but maybe Ainge and Stevens think Brown has progressed enough they'd rather not take away his minutes. etc. and PJ Tucker doesn't make you a better team than the Cavs.I get the philosophy, but it's not as though that strategy doesn't have its own risks. Finding a trading partner that has the player(s) you want isn't a sure things, and neither are draft picks. And, at some stage, this little-engine-that-could team approach might break down.
Particularly this season, the Celtics seemed primed to be in a spot to make a run for a 1.5-year rental. They spent half the season getting into position, and adding that special piece could have made this a year to get to The Finals. Now, it's as though they've conceded that they know they're too far away from contending for the title; and the message to the players is that this season isn't going to be one that gets them over the hump
This is really well-said. Both paths are valid, but Danny deserves credit for making his name on the short-run approach and embracing the long-term when appropriate. It's just good solid situational football.The advantage of draft picks as opposed to a veteran player is the years of control. If we traded the Brooklyn picks for Paul George, we only get George for the remainder of his contract. At that point he is free to jump ship to the Lakers. If we keep the Brooklyn picks we have those guys under team control for 8 years.
There are two ways of trying to a championship. You can cash in your chips for a short run at a title. Or you can build a really good team for 15+ years like the Spurs have done and pick up a ring every few years.
Right now the Celtics are built to follow the Spurs model. We have a great coaching staff, a team full of players who have bought into a system, a lot of quality young players, and incoming draft picks to give us fresh blood to maintain the team for a decade. If a player like Kevin Durant wants to sign with the Celtics they need to go after him. But until a favorable situation presents itself the team should stay the course.
It's hard for me to be dispassionate about the Celtics so I'm trying to imagine either Butler or George heading to a similar team and how I would feel about their chances. (Toronto, Washington, Memphis, etc.) In my mind, if any of those teams had to give up 2-3 starters or major contributors in exchange for those guys, I would admire their pluck but not see them as real threats to CLE or GSW. Cs are better-coached and deeper, but not so much that I think they're above this group.While PG and Butler may not decline sharply, we know their ceiling. And fortunately or unfortunately, that ceiling is that a team built solely around them is not going to the promised land.
Few points on thisDo you guys see my point here? The mythical Spurs path is just that - a myth. And the reason is because there is an NBA Draft every year but there is not a Tim Duncan or Lebron James every year and some years there's a Steph Curry and you don't even get it right.
I'm referring to year 2. He played 82 games, shot 38% from three, and was one of the better perimeter defenders in the league. That's a very good player. Scoring is nice, but it's just one part of the game.Is it possible the poster meant at age 20 and not Year 2?
Jimmy Butler was not a very good player by Year 2.
You are probably referring to either year 3 or 4 when he became very good.
Under 9 points a game is not very good in the NBA.