Robinson is getting plenty of interest from other teams as an offensive coordinator. Not sure why he would need McDaniels or anyone else to help him ( I realize you were going off of what was reported; I'm just skeptical of the report). Also, don't see how McDaniels' offense fits with the McVay system, and further I simply doubt Mayo wants him back. He's old hat.I really like this round of rumors - the idea of Steve as AC, Covington DC, Robinson as OC, and any of the above names as senior offensive consultant feels like the right way to start the Mayo era off with a good mix of new blood without blowing up the stuff that's been working well.
As far as some of those names, I don't see why Smith would take that job. Gruden is intriguing for sure, or that'd be a really appealing way to bring back McDaniels, who I think might be a serious asset in that kind of role and might actually not have better options.
Talking about it is definitely new. But the Patriots, by rule, have to spend. A lot. It's gonna be interesting.
I really hope they dont find themselves in the Red Sox position of having to throw good money at overrated players no one else wants. To the people here who were not fans of this team pre-Belichick, convincing high profile desired free agents to play here will not be an easy task.Talking about it is definitely new. But the Patriots, by rule, have to spend. A lot. It's gonna be interesting.
NFL free agency is unique. Players will sign anywhere if they can make money; even the Lions and Jets were able to sign free agents from the Pats. There are exceptions, of course, but not worth worrying about this offseason.I really hope they dont find themselves in the Red Sox position of having to throw good money at overrated players no one else wants. To the people here who were not fans of this team pre-Belichick, convincing high profile desired free agents to play here will not be an easy task.
Right, just look back to 2021. Mixed bag. Judon wasn't overrated, that was a great signing. Henry was a slight overpay but that's been fine. Agholor and Jonnu were bad signings. But the Pats didn't overpay guys no one else wanted. They just struck quickly.NFL free agency is unique. Players will sign anywhere if they can make money; even the Lions and Jets were able to sign free agents from the Pats. There are exceptions, of course, but not worth worrying about this offseason.
Biggest issue is that the team needs may not line up with the available free agents.
Good players sign with bad teams fairly frequently in the NFL. Bad teams usually have the cap space to make large offers. You always have exceptions of guys who chase rings for a discount of course, but cap space and willingness to spend is usually the selling factor in the NFL. Competitiveness, the coach, culture etc could be a tiebreaker but parity being what it is in the NFL, few teams are so moribund to preclude them from grabbing top playersI really hope they dont find themselves in the Red Sox position of having to throw good money at overrated players no one else wants. To the people here who were not fans of this team pre-Belichick, convincing high profile desired free agents to play here will not be an easy task.
Given the market rate for WR, I don’t know that Agholor was a significant overpay. 11M AAV is in the ballpark of what you’d expect a #3 or very low end #2 to get paid in the open market these days. Guys like Lazard, MVS, Chark, Gage, Fuller have all gotten similar deals recently. An overpay but not an egregious one especially given the limited length of the deal. I think they gambled on Agholor (who they reportedly liked in his draft year) fitting their system and blossoming a bit with expanded playing time and the 3 guys who got bigger contracts (Golladay, Samuel, Davis) all ended up as bad or worse signings with only Samuel sort of earning his contract (in volume, though he hasn’t been the big play/dynamic guy they thought).Right, just look back to 2021. Mixed bag. Judon wasn't overrated, that was a great signing. Henry was a slight overpay but that's been fine. Agholor and Jonnu were bad signings. But the Pats didn't overpay guys no one else wanted. They just struck quickly.
Oh totally agree on Agholor. Only a slight overpay. I meant bad signing because it didn't work out.Given the market rate for WR, I don’t know that Agholor was a significant overpay. 11M AAV is in the ballpark of what you’d expect a #3 or very low end #2 to get paid in the open market these days. Guys like Lazard, MVS, Chark, Gage, Fuller have all gotten similar deals recently. An overpay but not an egregious one especially given the limited length of the deal. I think they gambled on Agholor (who they reportedly liked in his draft year) fitting their system and blossoming a bit with expanded playing time and the 3 guys who got bigger contracts (Golladay, Samuel, Davis) all ended up as bad or worse signings with only Samuel sort of earning his contract (in volume, though he hasn’t been the big play/dynamic guy they thought).
Very few WR free agent contracts ever look good in hindsight. Unless you’re paying a proven #1 on the right side of 30, you’re likely going to end up with bad bang for your buck - same as tackle.
Agholor, with better QB play probably ends up a “meh” signing given the going rates at the position. Not a particularly good player and never developed the way he was projected to coming out of school, but, as he showed this year, he’s not a bad #3 and can play a useful albeit flawed role on a competent offense.
It was also a short deal, as were a lot of that offseason's for NE. They had to spend, they wanted to help out a rookie QB and it was a meh offensive class, so they loaded up on guys but kept most of the deals short even if it meant a slightly higher AAV.Given the market rate for WR, I don’t know that Agholor was a significant overpay. 11M AAV is in the ballpark of what you’d expect a #3 or very low end #2 to get paid in the open market these days. Guys like Lazard, MVS, Chark, Gage, Fuller have all gotten similar deals recently. An overpay but not an egregious one especially given the limited length of the deal. I think they gambled on Agholor (who they reportedly liked in his draft year) fitting their system and blossoming a bit with expanded playing time and the 3 guys who got bigger contracts (Golladay, Samuel, Davis) all ended up as bad or worse signings with only Samuel sort of earning his contract (in volume, though he hasn’t been the big play/dynamic guy they thought).
Very few WR free agent contracts ever look good in hindsight. Unless you’re paying a proven #1 on the right side of 30, you’re likely going to end up with bad bang for your buck - same as tackle.
Agholor, with better QB play probably ends up a “meh” signing given the going rates at the position. Not a particularly good player and never developed the way he was projected to coming out of school, but, as he showed this year, he’s not a bad #3 and can play a useful albeit flawed role on a competent offense.
Hi, I dont have a subscription to the Athletic, what are the main points & pros and cons that the author discusses? Thank you!
You can read it if you go to the link and use “reader” mode.Hi, I dont have a subscription to the Athletic, what are the main points & pros and cons that the author discusses? Thank you!
That article was crap. I'll summarize: There's no QB, WR, or OT worth spending money on. There are no other positions in football.
Does the article consist simply of the words "Um...NO" in 40-point font?
NAh it's Graff so he says "if they want to compete maybe?" then goes on to give an incredibly simplistic evaluation of other positions, including not even addressing that the top WRs will probably get tagged.Does the article consist simply of the words "Um...NO" in 40-point font?
They need to re-sign or replace Henry and a bunch of linebackers (Uche, Wilson, Jennings) which will eat away at their cap. Another CB is a possibility as are replacements for Guy and Phillips if they’re cut.That article was crap. I'll summarize: There's no QB, WR, or OT worth spending money on. There are no other positions in football.
The point of the article (no QB, WR, or OT worth spending money on) may or may not be true; but what about the other positions.
The article that needs to be written is "where/how should the Pats spend their available cap?"
My answer to that question:
- Re-sign Onwenu (rumors suggest that may not be possible)
- Extend Barmore.
- Sign a WR -- Higgins, Pittman, or Ridley, ideally
- Re-sign or replace Dugger.
- Replace Zeke (Antonio Gibson, maybe?)
- Find a TE who can block. Maybe this is the Pharaoh. Maybe a mid-round draft pick
- Consider if Mekhi Becton can be salvaged with a change of scenery.
I think they would have $82. Saw a Miguel tweet on that the other nightCut JC Jackson and you have over $75M in cap space.
Not that I think this will happen but just for fun...
Using the PFF contract estimates + wild guesses for Barmore and Wilson:
Barmore extension - 4 yrs $19M AAV
Mike Onwenu - 4 yrs $14.5M
Jonah Williams - 4 yrs $16M
Kendrick Bourne - 2 yrs $7M
Mack Wilson - 3 yrs $6.75M
Hunter Henry - 2 yrs $6.25M
Anfernee Jennings - 2 yrs $5.25M
That's about ~$72M after discounting Barmore's existing salary. Could make some more room with some restructures and additional cuts to add a few other pieces like an RB or a blocking TE. You lose Dugger and Uche, but I'll take that trade for not having to enter the draft with a gaping tackle hole. And you're not forced to reach for a guy you don't love at the top of the 2nd round because of a run on tackles at the end of the 1st or something like that.
The AAV wouldn't be their cap hit next year. Barmore and Onwenu would be much, much lower.So use up almost 90% of the cap space to basically run it back? That doesn’t sound super appealing.
Ah ok. Then maybeThe AAV wouldn't be their cap hit next year. Barmore and Onwenu would be much, much lower.
Those kinds of trades are pretty rare. Trent Williams and Laremy Tunsil were traded with huge contracts and they still cost 1st round picks. Those are the only two high end tackles I can recall recently moving and both were cases where teams without QBs entered clear tear it all down rebuilds.I haven't seen any real discussion of any potential trade options for filling holes at LT and RT. Are there any possibilities for contracts that teams might be willing to part with for a mid-round pick?
That could be another way to use our cap space. I've looked at the top Tackle contracts, but don't know enough to say who might be available.
Hard to say for sure, but at LT.....I haven't seen any real discussion of any potential trade options for filling holes at LT and RT. Are there any possibilities for contracts that teams might be willing to part with for a mid-round pick?
That could be another way to use our cap space. I've looked at the top Tackle contracts, but don't know enough to say who might be available.
Missed that Brown had interviewed. So Patriots can hire at any time now
I mean, he was there one year after success in LA. Also.... the Panthers had by far the least offensive talent in the league. I honestly think in a combined squad game the Patriots would have between 10 and 11 of the starters (maybe 9 if you kick Onwenwu inside and you love Bryce Young).You cannot pass up the opportunity to hire the guy who lead the offense that was tied with yours for fewest points. Pretty underwhelming list.
It’s pretty rare in todays NFL to find a halfway decent tackle. I don’t think teams are going to be trading them unless the contract is awful or they’re getting a haul of picks for a guy on a soon to expire contractI haven't seen any real discussion of any potential trade options for filling holes at LT and RT. Are there any possibilities for contracts that teams might be willing to part with for a mid-round pick?
That could be another way to use our cap space. I've looked at the top Tackle contracts, but don't know enough to say who might be available.
Feels like Caley is going to be the guy based on NE history and most of these other guys finding jobs elsewhere. Which would be underwhelming to be kind.
+ a long article on Tee Martin's coaching career. It seems as if they are focused on McVay tree guys but Martin seems like he'd be a great candidate, especially if they drafted Jayden Daniels.In his new position, Martin introduced new drills, altered techniques and tweaked fundamentals, down to how Jackson stood as he received a shotgun snap: Rather than standing with his left foot forward, he started with his right foot up to make his drop more efficient.
“You’re talking about someone who’s already been league MVP, signed a big contract, and he came in with a humble attitude of getting better,” Martin said. “When you ask someone to make changes in a phase of their career when they’ve already seen success and you come in and introduce new things as a new coach, you can get pushback. Lamar listened. He accepted things. He tried them. When it didn’t work early, he kept trying to the point to where it’s a part of who he is and what he’s doing.”
Martin emphasized “finding throws” when plays break down. Jackson had typically relied on his electric running ability to rescue plays when pressured, but exercising patience and scampering behind the line of scrimmage could lead to huge gains. Martin and Jackson worked on drills to keep his eyes downfield and create a stable base from which to throw while scrambling. Many of Jackson’s highlight plays this season have come after he pinballs around the pocket, allowing receivers relative eons to come open.
Yes, Carolina is lacking in talent. Still not a plus on his side. At best for him you ignore last year altogether. For Rams, he was primarily in charge of RBs and TEs. I guess Hygbee had a solid year under him and Darrell Henderson looked pretty good. At least, Brown does have a bit of experience including OC for UMiami. I wouldn't write him off as an OC but he certainly doesn't excite me.I mean, he was there one year after success in LA. Also.... the Panthers had by far the least offensive talent in the league. I honestly think in a combined squad game the Patriots would have between 10 and 11 of the starters (maybe 9 if you kick Onwenwu inside and you love Bryce Young).
Tee Martin is an interesting name. However, I believe he was the Univ of Tennessee not the Titans.Before Baltimore, he spent 7 years at USC as a WRs coach, adding additional titles like passing game coordinator, and then OC for his last 3 years. After that, he became Vrabel's WR coach for AJ Brown's first two years in the league.
OCs with experience who are good.... either aren't getting fired or are becoming head coaches though. That's kind of how it works generally.Yes, Carolina is lacking in talent. Still not a plus on his side. At best for him you ignore last year altogether. For Rams, he was primarily in charge of RBs and TEs. I guess Hygbee had a solid year under him and Darrell Henderson looked pretty good. At least, Brown does have a bit of experience including OC for UMiami. I wouldn't write him off as an OC but he certainly doesn't excite me.
My point was more about all the known candidates left, I don't see much to get excited about.
People seem to want to get excited over anyone associated with the Rams. There's been a lot of brain drain on that Rams staff over the last few years. Their scoring offense in the last 5 years: 8th, 27th, 7, 22, 11. Good but not anything special. Yes Stafford got hurt in 2022 but they were struggling before then. They were dynamic when they had LaFleur and Taylor. Stafford had an excellent first season but was mediocre this year after being below average and getting injured in 2022. Goff has been better the last couple years than his last couple seasons with the Rams. Not getting me excited about Zac Robinson. Who again was passed over by his own team last year.
Caley was here for four years before being under McVay for a single season. Primarily working with TEs. Does have a couple years as a secondary coach at the college level.
Jerrod Johnson has one year as QB coach, one as an assistant QB coach and a couple as a quality control guy.
Any of these guys could end being excellent OCs and the interviews will certainly tell a lot. However, I'd like to see guys with more experience even as an OC in college particular since NE has a rookie coach who is a defensive guy.
Yep you’re right, misread that.Tee Martin is an interesting name. However, I believe he was the Univ of Tennessee not the Titans.
I would agree on Passing game coordinator as a good experience and foundation.If you want an experienced OC... you're likely looking at McDaniels, or maybe Kliff?
I also don't want to go for college OCs over pro guys because.... college OC is a less premium/desirable position than things like Pass game coordinator or assistant HC (Brown's position under McVay), so you're taking the guys who either are older re-treads who don't want to take the "demotion" or guys who aren't in the run for pro spots.
If we want PGC experience what about the guy Robinson replaced as PGC in LA (Wes Phillips)? O'Connell took him to Minnesota to be his OC, but he's not calling any plays there. Could a bump to OC with playcalling duties + Assistant HC or something convince him to move?I would agree on Passing game coordinator as a good experience and foundation.
Right now we are looking Brown, Caley, Johnson and maybe Robinson. Robinson is the only one with PGC experience and he's likely headed elsewhere. And he's only had two years at that level with a few as an assistant position coach.
That leaves us with Brown, Caley and Johnson.
Thomas Brown does have experience as an OC if only a year. And that offense was bottom of the league, granted with talent to support that ranking. But technically, he'd be one of those retreads mentioned. I believe he also only has a half season of play calling duties.
That leaves us with Caley and Johnson. One whose experience is primarily with TEs and the other with extremely limited experience. That is why I hope they have a wider net than what those reported. Someone like Tee Martin mentioned above should get a look from the Patriots.
Brown was assistant head coach as well, I'd also say that TE coach is considered a top position for moving to OC because it works with both the pass game and run game groups, so it's seen as a spot you put a guy who you think is a future coordinator because it gets him in all the meetings.I would agree on Passing game coordinator as a good experience and foundation.
Right now we are looking Brown, Caley, Johnson and maybe Robinson. Robinson is the only one with PGC experience and he's likely headed elsewhere. And he's only had two years at that level with a few as an assistant position coach.
That leaves us with Brown, Caley and Johnson.
Thomas Brown does have experience as an OC if only a year. And that offense was bottom of the league, granted with talent to support that ranking. But technically, he'd be one of those retreads mentioned. I believe he also only has a half season of play calling duties.
That leaves us with Caley and Johnson. One whose experience is primarily with TEs and the other with extremely limited experience. That is why I hope they have a wider net than what those reported. Someone like Tee Martin mentioned above should get a look from the Patriots.
No kidding. Not a bad thing, given how insular things have been, but I hope they settle on someone soon so they can get to work on the QB draft prep with whomever they hire.Pretty extensive OC search we are conducting
View: https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1750980833526088125
"The #Patriots plan to interview #Lions pass game coordinator Tanner Engstrand for their OC position, source said. Engstrand’s name has become a popular one around the NFL thanks to Detroit’s offensive success. Engstrand also worked with Jim Harbaugh earlier in his career."