4-man rotation

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I know the idea of 6-man rotations have been beat to death here and elsewhere over the last 20 years. But I want to propose a new/old idea: the 4-man rotation.

Considering that most starters are increasingly rarely asked to pitch more than 5 innings anymore, due to health and effectiveness, I wonder about a new take on an old approach, namely a 4-man rotation, where starters are only asked to pitch 4 innings. (I know there may be all sorts of contractual issues, -- let alone ego issues -- due to incentives pegged to wins that only kick in when a starter goes 5 innings, but maybe that's a rule that goes away in 2023.)

On paper, in a season, there are 162 games to start obviously. In an injury-free world, that means no more than 33 starts, with most SP's looking at 30-32. If you assume a 5 inning average length of start. According to this fangraphs article from last year, average SP IP was under 5 in 2020 for the first time. But more notably, it was part of a 6-year declining trend. Not surprisingly, the average numbers of both batters faced and pitches thrown have similar downward trends.

So why not simply embrace those counts, and look to increase frequency of starts?

In a 5-man rotation, for every 20 games, barring any weirdness of injury, days off, or other rotation-juggling, each of the 5 SP's will start 4 games, and at 5 IP/game average, log a total of 20 IP.

In my theoretical 4-man rotation, for every 20 games, barring any weirdness of injury, days off, or other rotation-juggling, each of the 4 SP's will start 4 games, and at a projected 4 IP/game average, log the exact same total of 20 IP. So you aren't taking any innings away from your top 4 guys, you are simply moving more innings into the bullpen, but a bullpen that now has an extra guy (whether that means 9 instead of 8 or 8 instead of 7). And bullpens might be less taxed by eliminating a team's 5th and worst starter, which often is becoming a bullpen game anyway.

I know players, especially SP's are creatures of habit and routine, and this is a sport played with real humans, not computers, but once upon a time, teams changed from 4-man rotations to 5-man rotations and no one died. If anything, this allows an even more basic rhythm to their routine as every four days looks like this: Game, off, bullpen session, off, repeat.

So what do you think?
 

Yaz4Ever

MemBer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2004
11,294
MA-CA-RI-AZ-NC
I love the idea of a 4-man rotation. I'd rather have a marginal 5th starter available for long relief stints in the way Tim Wakefield became invaluable for awhile. I agree that pitchers (like many athletes) are creatures of habit, but I'd be shocked if Chris Sale or Nathan Eovaldi balked at the opportunity to toe the rubber more often.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,734
I think a 4man/4inning rotation might stretch staffs too thin. Or at least have some bad pitchers pitching more than anyone would like. One thing about the present setup is that, in theory, teams have one or two pitchers that are capable of 6+ innings, such that once or twice a week, the twigs and seeds of the pen dont have to pitch when it counts. As a replacement for the "number 5 starter," however, it's a good idea, since those guys arent usually very good anyway.
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 12, 2003
14,671
South Boston
No one would sign here if they went with 4 SP and 4 innings each start. Baseball is still a counting sport and SP that don't get wins don't see the big $ contracts
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
What do you do about the elite starters in the game? Are you taking them out after 4 dominant innings and turning the ball over to the bullpen? If the answer is no, do you let them go 7-8 innings (or 105 pitches) and then bring them back on 3 days rest?
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
30,117
Alamogordo
Additionally, the toll this would take on a bullpen seems exorbitant to me. I know the average IP/G has gone down, but I feel like there needs to be days whete the starter goes deeper. Feels like having 5+ for the bullpen literally every game would be unsustainable.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Additionally, the toll this would take on a bullpen seems exorbitant to me. I know the average IP/G has gone down, but I feel like there needs to be days whete the starter goes deeper. Feels like having 5+ for the bullpen literally every game would be unsustainable.
Agreed. 4+ innings per game for only a week is exposing a lot of bullpens now. Guys become unavailable because of overuse and your end of the bench guys are put into spots that they shouldn't be pitching in.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2001
10,314
Additionally, the toll this would take on a bullpen seems exorbitant to me. I know the average IP/G has gone down, but I feel like there needs to be days whete the starter goes deeper. Feels like having 5+ for the bullpen literally every game would be unsustainable.
How does this matter if there's four starters versus five? The relievers seem like they're coming in during the fourth or fifth inning more and more these days almost regardless of who's starting, and having a four man rotation would free up another roster spot for another reliever who could help carry the load. And if you get rid of your worst starter, maybe you cut down on the 1 2/3 innings starts that really tax a bullpen.

I said in the shift thread last night that I don't like the increasing use of one after another in a series of faceless relievers that characterizes most pitching staff management, so I wouldn't view this as a positive development, but it's not hard to see some teams getting there.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,664
around the way
I said in the shift thread last night that I don't like the increasing use of one after another in a series of faceless relievers that characterizes most pitching staff management, so I wouldn't view this as a positive development, but it's not hard to see some teams getting there.
Not sure why the relievers are faceless, when it seems like they're becoming a larger and more important part of baseball.
 

Rice4HOF

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 21, 2002
1,905
Calgary, Canada
If you want to get really radical, forget about rotations at all. You have 13 pitchers... they each pitch ~3 innings each game, and just keep rotating through after each 4 games. COMPLETELY messes up any pitching stats, but I could see some lower revenue teams eventually trying something like this. You need to slowly stretch out some 1 inning relievers to be able to go 2 and then 3, and meanwhile your "starters" go 4 or 5 until the relievers are all up to 3 innings.
Sounds like a really stupid idea, but a lot of what teams are doing today would have sounded crazy 20 years ago.
(To be clear, I'm not advocating for this, but would like to save this and look at it in 20 years and see if anyone has gone in this direction)
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,021
Maine
If you want to get really radical, forget about rotations at all. You have 13 pitchers... they each pitch ~3 innings each game, and just keep rotating through after each 4 games. COMPLETELY messes up any pitching stats, but I could see some lower revenue teams eventually trying something like this. You need to slowly stretch out some 1 inning relievers to be able to go 2 and then 3, and meanwhile your "starters" go 4 or 5 until the relievers are all up to 3 innings.
Sounds like a really stupid idea, but a lot of what teams are doing today would have sounded crazy 20 years ago.
(To be clear, I'm not advocating for this, but would like to save this and look at it in 20 years and see if anyone has gone in this direction)
The trouble with that is if a pitcher doesn't have it on a given day, does he still slog through three innings to keep the pitching staff on track at the expense of that game or does he get yanked and throw the whole rotation out of whack in the hopes of staying in that game?

Which, really, is the flaw in any plan that involves pitchers covering X innings each. While starters may not be pitching as deep into games as they used to, I think a rotation of pitchers starting games and going as far as they can each time is still going to be the norm.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
The trouble with that is if a pitcher doesn't have it on a given day, does he still slog through three innings to keep the pitching staff on track at the expense of that game or does he get yanked and throw the whole rotation out of whack in the hopes of staying in that game?

Which, really, is the flaw in any plan that involves pitchers covering X innings each. While starters may not be pitching as deep into games as they used to, I think a rotation of pitchers starting games and going as far as they can each time is still going to be the norm.
That is what #13 is for. You better not have two bad outings in 3 days, though
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Some valid points on both sides here. One other thought I have reading thru them is that perhaps by acknowledging to a starter that 4IP is the goal, maybe his stuff plays up a bit, as we’ve often seen happen with starters moving to the bullpen. If a SP knows that he only needs 12 outs, does that fastball gain a couple MPH?
 

Rice4HOF

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 21, 2002
1,905
Calgary, Canada
That is what #13 is for. You better not have two bad outings in 3 days, though
or too many extra innings!

Yeah, it won't work with a strict 3 innings per pitcher no matter what. If a pitcher doesn't have it, you gotta yank him, and either have your #13 guy eat up a few innings and concede the game, or have a couple of guys push to go 4+ innings each to keep everything on track.

Alternatively, you have 8 guys capable of going 4-5 innings each. You just piggy back them, and use the rest of the guys to fill in as necessary.
But this is really just a minor twist on the original idea of 4 SPs who go 4 innings each.
 

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
15,885
No one would sign here if they went with 4 SP and 4 innings each start. Baseball is still a counting sport and SP that don't get wins don't see the big $ contracts
If that's really a consideration in modern baseball, just employ an opener every game, then play the starter 4 innings.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
Some valid points on both sides here. One other thought I have reading thru them is that perhaps by acknowledging to a starter that 4IP is the goal, maybe his stuff plays up a bit, as we’ve often seen happen with starters moving to the bullpen. If a SP knows that he only needs 12 outs, does that fastball gain a couple MPH?
Do you necessarily want that?
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
30,117
Alamogordo
How does this matter if there's four starters versus five? The relievers seem like they're coming in during the fourth or fifth inning more and more these days almost regardless of who's starting, and having a four man rotation would free up another roster spot for another reliever who could help carry the load. And if you get rid of your worst starter, maybe you cut down on the 1 2/3 innings starts that really tax a bullpen.

I said in the shift thread last night that I don't like the increasing use of one after another in a series of faceless relievers that characterizes most pitching staff management, so I wouldn't view this as a positive development, but it's not hard to see some teams getting there.
Because with a four man rotation (at least the way it is stated in the OP) you are in essence guaranteeing that your bullpen will pitch 5+ innings every single game. With a five man rotation right now, sure the overall average is down, but each rotation has at least one guy who can pitch long enough to give most of the relievers a day off somewhere in there.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,566
Santa Monica
I know the idea of 6-man rotations have been beat to death here and elsewhere over the last 20 years. But I want to propose a new/old idea: the 4-man rotation.

Considering that most starters are increasingly rarely asked to pitch more than 5 innings anymore, due to health and effectiveness, I wonder about a new take on an old approach, namely a 4-man rotation, where starters are only asked to pitch 4 innings. (I know there may be all sorts of contractual issues, -- let alone ego issues -- due to incentives pegged to wins that only kick in when a starter goes 5 innings, but maybe that's a rule that goes away in 2023.)

On paper, in a season, there are 162 games to start obviously. In an injury-free world, that means no more than 33 starts, with most SP's looking at 30-32. If you assume a 5 inning average length of start. According to this fangraphs article from last year, average SP IP was under 5 in 2020 for the first time. But more notably, it was part of a 6-year declining trend. Not surprisingly, the average numbers of both batters faced and pitches thrown have similar downward trends.

So why not simply embrace those counts, and look to increase frequency of starts?

In a 5-man rotation, for every 20 games, barring any weirdness of injury, days off, or other rotation-juggling, each of the 5 SP's will start 4 games, and at 5 IP/game average, log a total of 20 IP.

In my theoretical 4-man rotation, for every 20 games, barring any weirdness of injury, days off, or other rotation-juggling, each of the 4 SP's will start 4 games, and at a projected 4 IP/game average, log the exact same total of 20 IP. So you aren't taking any innings away from your top 4 guys, you are simply moving more innings into the bullpen, but a bullpen that now has an extra guy (whether that means 9 instead of 8 or 8 instead of 7). And bullpens might be less taxed by eliminating a team's 5th and worst starter, which often is becoming a bullpen game anyway.

I know players, especially SP's are creatures of habit and routine, and this is a sport played with real humans, not computers, but once upon a time, teams changed from 4-man rotations to 5-man rotations and no one died. If anything, this allows an even more basic rhythm to their routine as every four days looks like this: Game, off, bullpen session, off, repeat.

So what do you think?
Interesting take. I'd watch to see if Tampa incorporated it. I'm sure they are considering stuff like this.

PLUS they have zero issue compressing salaries, don't play in the FA market and have been the most proactive in trying new/different stuff

I've always thought bullpens should have 3 pitchers shuttling/shuffling between AAA and the Majors. They would be swing arms that save innings from the high leverage pitchers in blowouts
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,477
Interesting take. I'd watch to see if Tampa incorporated it. I'm sure they are considering stuff like this.

PLUS they have zero issue compressing salaries, don't play in the FA market and have been the most proactive in trying new/different stuff

I've always thought bullpens should have 3 pitchers shuttling/shuffling between AAA and the Majors. They would be swing arms that save innings from the high leverage pitchers in blowouts
There is a new rule that guys can only be optioned five times in a season, after that they’re exposed to waiver claims.
 

VORP Speed

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,658
Ground Zero
The Rays have been doing this for years. It’s the reason the league is cracking down on how options are used and limiting the number of pitchers you can carry.