Semi is 12th on the current team in minutes per game, which is what Scal was in the championship season. Waters is 18th this season. The 2008 team didn’t even have that many guys who played.Last night was the first time I seriously entertained bringing IT back as an end of the bench sparkplug. He can't be worse than the Tremont.
I mean, for the end of the bench in my mind the base skill is don't be a bonehead / fuck basic shit up. Scal as a Celtic was a good example and there have been several since then: they don't have crazy skills but they also don't fuck up the basic stuff. Semi comes to mind as well. The last 3-4 at the end of the Celtic bench can take a hike.
Can’t the last 3-4 of nearly every teams bench take a hike by this time of the year? By April, it’s likely you’ve had some opportunity and if you are still the last 3-4 on your bench the prospects for your success in this league are not very good. Some are even clamoring for IT who has been worse than probably every teams last 3-4 for several years now.Last night was the first time I seriously entertained bringing IT back as an end of the bench sparkplug. He can't be worse than the Tremont.
I mean, for the end of the bench in my mind the base skill is don't be a bonehead / fuck basic shit up. Scal as a Celtic was a good example and there have been several since then: they don't have crazy skills but they also don't fuck up the basic stuff. Semi comes to mind as well. The last 3-4 at the end of the Celtic bench can take a hike.
Except it isn't. Waters is on a 2 way deal.Ship Waters out, bring IT in. Simple as that.
So he can't be waived on a 2 year deal? That seems like it doesn't make any sense.Except it isn't. Waters is on a 2 way deal.
This is true - Scal and Waters are not really comparable as to their position on the depth chart in their respective teams. I brought up Scal as a sort of role-model end of bench guy without putting that into consideration. I guess none of this would matter if everyone was healthy.Semi is 12th on the current team in minutes per game, which is what Scal was in the championship season. Waters is 18th this season. The 2008 team didn’t even have that many guys who played.
I don’t remember how good or bad the likes of Gabe Pruitt and J.R. Giddens were in the late 2000s, but those are the comps to Waters, not Scal (who was better than Semi, by the way).
Good points.Can’t the last 3-4 of nearly every teams bench take a hike by this time of the year? By April, it’s likely you’ve had some opportunity and if you are still the last 3-4 on your bench the prospects for your success in this league are not very good. Some are even clamoring for IT who has been worse than probably every teams last 3-4 for several years now.
He certainly can be waived, but can't be replaced with someone like IT who would not be on a 2-waySo he can't be waived on a 2 year deal? That seems like it doesn't make any sense.
I would like to petition changing the Daniel Theis to Chicago for Mo Wagner thread to "Mo Wagner is Worse" and have them competing for the top.I hope this thread remains at the top of the forum for the rest of the year.
Edit: And without a pin
Waters was -17 last night in 4 minutes, Jaylen was +36 in 33 minutes. Someone brought this up in the gamethread - that kind of spread has to be close to a record. Wagner was even worse, -20 in 6 minutes.
It's not even a record for this month. On April 2, the Raptors blew out the Warriors, 130-77. Gary Trent, Jr. was +54 in 30 minutes, but Stanley Johnson somehow managed a -7 in 20 minutes.Waters was -17 last night in 4 minutes, Jaylen was +36 in 33 minutes. Someone brought this up in the gamethread - that kind of spread has to be close to a record. Wagner was even worse, -20 in 6 minutes.
[...]
If anyone has quick access to some historical +/- api, what is the largest normalized spread between two teammates ever? Maybe we should do another normalization by minutes played?
Ok fine so waive someone else and bury Waters at the end of the bench even further. He's just not good.He certainly can be waived, but can't be replaced with someone like IT who would not be on a 2-way
As you well know, there are no guarantees in life but I would be willing to wager a good sum that the bad man won't hurt you again. Like everyone else here, I am merely a fan with no insight into how an NBA franchise actually works but I strongly suspect Stevens won't be emptying his bench that early again and that Waters likely won't see any more non-garbage time for this season if not the rest of his Celtics career.Ok fine so waive someone else and bury Waters at the end of the bench even further. He's just not good.
Why are you making this into something this isn't? He didn't hurt me or anyone here. I just don't think he's a good player.As you well know, there are no guarantees in life but I would be willing to wager a good sum that the bad man won't hurt you again. Like everyone else here, I am merely a fan with no insight into how an NBA franchise actually works but I strongly suspect Stevens won't be emptying his bench that early again and that Waters likely won't see any more non-garbage time for this season if not the rest of his Celtics career.
That this is a thread and problem occupying people's minds towards the end of a West Coast road trip just makes this Friday all the better.
The Celtics have won five in a row and nine of their last twelve. We (me and you included) are participating on a thread about how awful the worst non-big on the bench is because they played terribly in trying to mop up a win. That any one of us is devoting a thought to this is the highest class problem a Celtics fan has had in months. That is all I am saying.Why are you making this into something this isn't? He didn't hurt me or anyone here. I just don't think he's a good player.
This I agree with. If this is what we have to complain about, I'll take it. Let's just see if this continues against teams like GS, Phoenix, and Brooklyn over the next week.The Celtics have won five in a row and nine of their last twelve. We (me and you included) are participating on a thread about how terrible the worst non-big on the team is because they played terribly in trying to mop up a win. That any one of us is devoting a thought to this is the highest class problem a Celtics fan has had in months. That is all I am saying.
He also shouldn't. IT isn't anywhere near being an NBA player.You could waive Wagner and sign IT. Danny won't but he could.
Can't say I disagree. IT is by far my favorite Celtic since the big 3 but he is completely washed.He also shouldn't. IT isn't anywhere near being an NBA player.
I like how you grouped us with the Suns and Nets.This I agree with. If this is what we have to complain about, I'll take it. Let's just see if this continues against teams like GS, Phoenix, and Brooklyn over the next week.
I did see it. It is really hard to accomplish what he did in 3 minutes.I'd interested to know how many posters in this thread actually watched the Waters debacle unfold early this morning and how many just read about it.
I'm in the former group, and he was bad beyond belief. His indifference to time and score was stunning. Waters wanted to get his, and that's all that really mattered to him, it appeared.
It was terrible.I'd interested to know how many posters in this thread actually watched the Waters debacle unfold early this morning and how many just read about it.
I'm in the former group, and he was bad beyond belief. His indifference to time and score was stunning. Waters wanted to get his, and that's all that really mattered to him, it appeared.
While I'm not exactly sure of the Cs luxury tax situation, IT would certainly make it more likely that the Cs end up in the luxury tax, which would not be ideal.He also shouldn't. IT isn't anywhere near being an NBA player.
It's a little funny after the fact, considering it was our 3rd string getting hammered by their 3rd string and none of the guys on the floor (other than maybe Semi) will ever see a single meaningful minute in the playoffs, but in the moment it was beyond infuriating. A loss would have been devastating. Beyond the simple fact that every game counts now in the rush to get a top 6 seed, the Celtics are on a really nice little run and to think that it was nearly derailed by the likes of Tremont Waters and Mo Wagner is, frankly, gross.I think my reaction was a little different than most, I had no doubt they would win. I found the bench performance hilarious. That said, I was a little shocked.
He was playing like it was a G League game. I guess considering who else was on the court, maybe he got confused.Tremont is on a 2-way contract. You can't cut him to make room for IT, who does not qualify.
I turned off the game just before the debacle began. I gather from the game thread that the problem wasn't that Tremont was bad. It was that he showed no regard for the outcome of the game. He just jacked up shots whenever possible rather than hold on to the ball and let time go off the clock. Poof! Like that, a 27 point lead almost vanished and they had to bring JB back in to right the ship.
Yes. I hope there are several more, "Jesus, Tremont Waters sucked in garbage time *again* and helped the C's nearly give away a 30-point lead *again* " threads.This I agree with. If this is what we have to complain about, I'll take it. Let's just see if this continues against teams like GS, Phoenix, and Brooklyn over the next week.
You expect him to be bad. He's the 17th guy on the team. He's praised for his BBIQ and goes on to play like that.Im just thrilled this thread has gotten the response it has. Love him or hate him, Waters generates reactions! Maybe last night was part of an impending transition to social media influencer.
Also, are people really distinguishing between bad and dumb on an NBA court? Isn't being dumb a means to being bad? He was so bad!
I was about an hour behind on DVR, and it was a bad as you say. It's one thing that guys come in and fuck around a bit with a huge lead, even resident bench warmers. But as the lead shrunk, he showed no inclination to give a rat's ass. It was infuriating.I'd interested to know how many posters in this thread actually watched the Waters debacle unfold early this morning and how many just read about it.
I'm in the former group, and he was bad beyond belief. His indifference to time and score was stunning. Waters wanted to get his, and that's all that really mattered to him, it appeared.
Perhaps as fans we're just wired to fear the worst, but after the Lakers started hitting 3s and got their deficit under 20, it immediately occurred to me that there was plenty of time for the C's lead to vanish. I wonder if the coaches have the same feeling of dread.It was terrible.
That said, if you stick around for garbage time for other NBA games (because aside from the degens in the gambling thread, what sort of fool would do that...oh...), you can see variations of what Waters & company did pretty much every night. Perhaps I am missing the significance of Waters horrible, no-good, very bad showing but it should come as no shock to anyone that the end of pretty much every NBA bench is filled with players who aren't very good.
Especially for a point guard. Wagner made more terrible plays and we can wonder what the hell Semi and Nesmith were doing (unlike Edwards/Waters/Wager those two have occasionally gotten real playing time this year and were completely invisible as the lead collapsed), but ultimately blowing a lead that large is on the point guard. The lead went from 27 to 7, and as someone noted earlier it should be nearly impossible to give up 20 points in 4 minutes. That's ten 24 second violations, which would have been far better than what they actually did.Im just thrilled this thread has gotten the response it has. Love him or hate him, Waters generates reactions! Maybe last night was part of an impending transition to social media influencer.
Also, are people really distinguishing between bad and dumb on an NBA court? Isn't being dumb a means to being bad? He was so bad!
I imagine Stevens was dreading putting the starters in after clearing the bench. It's always a bad look.Perhaps as fans we're just wired to fear the worst, but after the Lakers started hitting 3s and got their deficit under 20, it immediately occurred to me that there was plenty of time for the C's lead to vanish. I wonder if the coaches have the same feeling of dread.
Nesmith may have played a little more, but as of right now, he's definitely in the Edwards/Waters/Wagner group.Especially for a point guard. Wagner made more terrible plays and we can wonder what the hell Semi and Nesmith were doing (unlike Edwards/Waters/Wager those two have occasionally gotten real playing time this year and were completely invisible as the lead collapsed), but ultimately blowing a lead that large is on the point guard. The lead went from 27 to 7, and as someone noted earlier it should be nearly impossible to give up 20 points in 4 minutes. That's ten 24 second violations, which would have been far better than what they actually did.
Just imagine if one of the Jay's sprained an ankle in the final 2 minutes because they had to come back in due to Waters' disastrous playI imagine Stevens was dreading putting the starters in after clearing the bench. It's always a bad look.
As a side note, I know Stevens has his detractors around here but even Steve Kerr has had to put his starters back into games that benches for the peak-Warriors teams have fumbled away. It happens but to your point, you rarely see coaches make the same mistake twice.I imagine Stevens was dreading putting the starters in after clearing the bench. It's always a bad look.